"Basic" Turbo Setup, List of Parts Needed?

All boost related things here. Turbos, SuperChargers, FMUs, Megasquirt, et al.
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dmcl
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"Basic" Turbo Setup, List of Parts Needed?

Postby dmcl » Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:14 pm

been wanting an ebay special manifold so i can have a system fabbed up to fit it. anyway.. turbo manifolds on ebay are cheaper, guess less pipework = less money.

now i have always wanted to stick a blower on something and have tossed the idea around in my head with the E30 from when i bought it.

im just wondering what else besides a manifold/exhaust to suit would i need for a low boost setup.

i can think of these:

manifold + exhaust
turbo
oil lines (could maybe be plumbed into oil cooler network?)
intercooler
misc. silicone elbows + alloy pipes
T peice pipe + dump valve
1:1 rate fuel pressure reg
tuning via wideband/emulator and eventually suitable chip burned.

am i missing anything? spark blowout wouldnt be an issue id think on such a low boosting setup, however, i already have an uprated ignition coil fitted so def no potential blowout issues, also recent new fuel pump and hoping to upgrade to 19lb injectors soon-ish (if going with boost id ditch the 19lb idea and go bigger).. if i were to go this route i couldnt see wanting to push more than about 8-10psi for reliabilities sake.. plus with the 4.10 it would be reasonably quick and by the local standards a flying machine lol

has anyone just stuck on a turbo setup with the stock chip and did the engine live to tell the tale? thinking it would be easier to justify a turbo build if i could stage it so to speak. first stage is get all the mechanicals together then fit over a weekend and continue daily driving the car as normal tho on a very low amount of boost, no more than like 7psi. second stage would come after i have pinched enough pennies to buy a wideband AFR setup and emulator, once a state of tune was created with reasonable AFR's i could up the boost a little and re-tune as needed. yes i know boost + stock ecu = bad but would there be any ways to ghetto rig the setup to run safely rich as apposed to dangerously lean? 1:1 FPR + larger injectors on stock chip or something like that?

finally what sort of boost levels can a basically stock M20 handle with a basically bolt on turbo setup and the DME tuned for boost.
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Re: "Basic" Turbo Setup, List of Parts Needed?

Postby Yoshi » Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:44 pm

Your parts list looks good for a low budget setup. a 1:1 FPR would be the stock FPR. did you mean something else? The 4.10 will be too short IMO. youll want longer down the road for now but it will work. An M20B25 is known to handle about 15psi before popping. Most people go ARP head studs with the stock gasket for insurance tho.

As for your setup all together. You are budget minded but you are setting yourself up to kill the motor. I'm not saying your setup will blow the motor. It's just on the corner of janky a recipe for doom. If you get a TCD chip, stick to what they tell you the chip is for. your stock motronics is not smart enough to know you shoved in 19# injectors. a RRFPR will work with stock everything else but its not ideal. At the very very least get a wide band and hawk it. It isn't the best/only way to tell how your motor is doing but without that, you're just praying.
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Re: "Basic" Turbo Setup, List of Parts Needed?

Postby dmcl » Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:24 pm

rising rate FPR is no good for turbo. thought the stock FPR was not the same as the aftermarket 1:1 because 1:1 is only suited to boost? (EDIT: i see it now, a RRFPR on a stock engine with a turbo strapped to it should overfuel and overfuelling means no uber lean conditions that melt pistons)

i have tunerpro and have played around with some maps but need an emulator and wideband to progress any further. i hadnt even thought of an off the shelf turbo chip like the TCD one.. could save money in the short term unless its priced stupidly high tho id still want wideband AFR because the last thing i want to do is melt pistons lol

i dont have a recipe as such.. i was only asking if anyone ran a turbo setup on a stock ECU with only larger injectors.. ECU would still tell the injectors to flow the same amount it just wont know that what it thinks is the same will be more due to the larger injectors. i dont even know if that would work.. just tossing ideas around. if the TCD chip is an off the shelf item for a boosted M20 then i would likely get one and throw it in along with the turbo even if the turbo isnt identical to whats recommended for the chip its still going to be a million times better than an OEM or N/A tuned chip. turbo wise something in the T3/T4 region. nothing huge, want like 10psi max and fast spool up rather than all out big numbers and lag, which would require further engine work anyway..

RE: ARP studs.. studs mean gasket, gasket means head off. the original gasket is still functioning as it should be so id like to leave it alone till such times as it needs replacing. ofcourse it might be fairly quickly if im shoving 8psi into the motor and giving it a hard time on the skinny pedal which i have a habit of doing.

RE: motronic, u can tune for larger injectors just fine, also tune for M30 AFM or even MAF.. also been tossing around the idea of a MAF conversion. i had been preoccupied with thinking about getting an emulator, wideband and chip burner to play with and the car desperately needs a full exhaust but the price difference between ebay turbo and non turbo E30 manifolds is big which got me thinking maybe i should get off my ass and start collecting parts for a turbo setup instead. even a budget setup will yield more gains than a full system and whatever other N/A tweaks i can muster.

as for the 4.10... its not great on the motorways here but the majority of roads are a 60mph limit or below and on the whole our roads are smaller, straights that arent as long, etc, etc. i drive a 60mph road to and from work daily and the 4.10 is fine allbeit 5th does feel like 4th did in some previous cars but hey.. it makes the car faster without even touching the engine so whats not to like about it.
Last edited by dmcl on Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Basic" Turbo Setup, List of Parts Needed?

Postby Yoshi » Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:36 pm

Sounds like you've thought things out. But in easy form, here are my opinions:

1) chip burning is ok. Fucking with the stock ECU will only get you so far (unreliably). SAFC minimum for boost IMO.

2) 4.10 will not be much fun with bewst

3) Tis better to take your time and over build (IE HG/ARPs) than blow it, then have to do it when you aren't expecting it.

4) Over think and over build. never assume.
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Re: "Basic" Turbo Setup, List of Parts Needed?

Postby dmcl » Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:42 pm

not assuming the HG will take it.. just i dont like fixing things till they break then i over do it. just look at my 5spd swap.. auto died, instead of a replacement auto i dropped in a 260 with all new cylinders, hoses, pipes, clutch kit, flex disc, linkages and Z3M stick lol

the 4.10 is alot of fun.. in the wet i can spin the wheels till i hit 4th and in the dry i can chirp 2nd even at like 2500rpm on upshift. i can only imagine how often id need to replace back tyres with a blower thrown in the mix :mrgreen:

i have thought things out a bit.. moreso because i wanted to turbo or supercharge just about every previous car i have ever owned. at one stage i had a new T3 and a random intercooler sitting collecting dust but sold the car and sold the stuff. wish i still had that T3 now tho.

so lay it on me people. whats a safe bet for a bare bones turbo setup that wont kill the motor? T3/T4, TCD chip, IC, stock FPR, stock injectors (does TCD chip require larger?), what about fuel pump? stock work ok? also whats a safe level of boost to run on such a setup? anything up to 10psi? will 10psi or below potentially eat my headgasket? 10psi in a tyre feels like nothing.. i wouldnt think it would put too much extra stress on the gasket?

also where would the best location be for the stock AFM? between the turbo and the TB (ie stock position-ish) or between the air filter and the turbo or does it matter?
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Re: "Basic" Turbo Setup, List of Parts Needed?

Postby Yoshi » Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:54 pm

I think most systems use a blow through system with AFMs but I'm not good on that. Call TCD about their chips. As I always go full stand alone.

8psi is a max I would think. 12 killed my motor. 10 was on the bounds I would say.
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Re: "Basic" Turbo Setup, List of Parts Needed?

Postby dmcl » Sat Dec 26, 2009 5:03 pm

tbh id even be happy with 8. dunno about calling TCD.. im in the boonies lol
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Re: "Basic" Turbo Setup, List of Parts Needed?

Postby Yoshi » Sat Dec 26, 2009 5:06 pm

email then
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Re: "Basic" Turbo Setup, List of Parts Needed?

Postby dmcl » Sat Dec 26, 2009 6:21 pm

but im lazy... i dont wanna... boo hoo hoo.. lol

they got a website or whatever that i can nosey around on? more i think of it the more tempted to start collecting bits.
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Re: "Basic" Turbo Setup, List of Parts Needed?

Postby Yoshi » Sat Dec 26, 2009 6:23 pm

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Re: "Basic" Turbo Setup, List of Parts Needed?

Postby dmcl » Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:46 am

i see said the blind man.. looked at the chip, could do that easy enough. says the fuel tables arent changed so id have to sort fuelling out. think some 19lb or 24lb injectors would cover it? ie- drop in and go. would probably be a bit rich but rich i could live with untill a proper fix was devised.
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Re: "Basic" Turbo Setup, List of Parts Needed?

Postby Yoshi » Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:09 am

I have no idea. I don't trust chips.... talk to the maker and make sure its legit.
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Re: "Basic" Turbo Setup, List of Parts Needed?

Postby M20_fever » Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:33 pm

Yoshi is right, budget turbo and reliability don't generally go hand in hand. If you are going low cost, go with what TCD suggests for it's chip since that setup has been tested. If you home brew some uber cheap turbo system you will end up paying as much or more that a proper low boost setup when things go south.
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Re: "Basic" Turbo Setup, List of Parts Needed?

Postby dmcl » Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:03 pm

im under the impression things cant go too far south on low boost? reading about the chip it says the ignition timing maps have been tweaked so that they are boost friendly so probably retarded the timing a little to be on the safe side id say. ill ask them and see what the chip was mapped on.. prob something small-ish turbo wise anyway so should be ok. just fuelling im not 100% sure on, larger injectors will increase fuelling but how much larger would i want to go is the question.. 19lb is good for an N/A upgrade but i read some boosted cars using 24lb and above.
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Re: "Basic" Turbo Setup, List of Parts Needed?

Postby Yoshi » Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:10 pm

19# is actually BAD for an NA upgrade. Even with the M30 MAF and chip your gains are no more than just a chip.

Anyway, You CAN fuck up badly on a low boost setup. Your power gains are from forcing more air/fuel into the combustion chamber that the car was never set up to do. Doing things like bigger injectors and RRFPRs are like threading a needle with snow mittens on. You can do it, but you might stab yourself a few times and it'll take you longer to get the same result.

Injectors are a static modification. Your injectors flow fuel in time increments. Lbs of fuel per hour. 16# injectors flow (for example) X amount of fuel. 19# injectors fill flow x+3 amount of fuel. Meaning, you flow +3 at idle, and +3 at WOT at redline. What you really want, is X at idle, and X*3 at redline/wot. With bigger injectors (without a chip made specifically FOR those injectors), you are simply over fueling at idle, and possible under fueling up top.

Now a RRFPR is a step up. You only fuel more AFTER you hit boost. So theres no chance of over fueling at idle. BUT, you have no idea what rate you need until you get there. Even then, fueling needs aren't linear like a RRFPR is. EG your RRFPR is 12:1. Meaning for every 1 psi of boost, your fuel pressure goes up 12psi. Even at a mild 5psi of boost, you fuel 105psi of fuel at 5psi! If your fuel pump manages to keep up, who's to say 57psi of fuel is what you need at 1psi of boost or 105psi of fuel is too much fuel at 5psi of boost. You can adjust the disk to give you different rates but it isn't very exact.

Sure you can fiddle with these things to get your car "good enough" but the trial and error even at low boost is dangerous to your motor. Too lean too many times can blow it, too rich can wash out your oil with gas and spin bearings. Forced induction pushes the bounds of your motor.
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