24V Swap info

M20/M30/M50/Whatever! All engine related stuff here.
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24V Swap info

Postby Yoshi » Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:27 pm

Key:
:?: -- I am not 100% sure or needs clarification.

Introduction
I have yet to find a single truly comprehensive guide on the infamous 24v swap so I aim to do that here. If you have anything to add, reply and I will update this main thread.


__________________________________________________________

How much power can I expect from my swap?
This is greatly effected by which engine you choose. Most M20 people want to desperately get to the mystical 200whp mark. Most of the drop in M50 derivatives will give that with just a few mods but most do not start that way.

Here are the HP numbers of the engines:
M50B25 (non vanos) - 189hp
M50B25TU (vanos) - 189hp (but better power curve and +3 tq)
S50B30 (US spec) - 240hp
M52B25 - 179hp
M52B28 - 190
S52B32 - 240hp

As you can see, a basic M50 swap will not net you much hp (~30hp). This is the reason many decide to go with an S5X engine. Vanos also helps deliver power much more efficiently and gives a more fun ride. Remember that the M50 has a much better head design and will give increased response and over all power than an M20.

Engine bore and strokes

Engine
Bore
stroke
Rod length

M54B30
84
89.6
135

S52
86.4
89.6
135

S50
86
85.8
135

M50
84
75
135



______________________________________________________

What do I need?

Absolute Necessities:
To get the engine to PHYSICALLY mount into the engine bay and get things working you need the following (unless your engine has it already):

E34 oil pan, dip stick, and tube. E36 style engines have the oil pump in the part of the engine, the pick up is what is different. Since the steering rack, part of the subframe, sway bars and many many other things are in that area, you need to relocate it to the front with E34 parts. The oil pan and pickup will effectively relocate where the oil is being picked up from while the oil pump does not move an inch.

E28/E28-M5 mounts and E36 motor mount arms.The motor mounts are either straight M5 mounts or stock E28 mounts with about 1/2 (13mm) worth of spacers. E36 alloy motor mount arms are necessary to properly place the engine in the bay.

Available here (you need either the second option or both the M5 mounts)
[url="http://www.pelicanparts.com/bmw/catalog/shopcart/BE28/POR_BE28_ENGman_pg5.htm#item31"]http://www.pelicanparts.com/bmw/cata...pg5.htm#item31[/url]

E34 throttle cable. The stock M20 throttle cable is far too short to reach the throttle body. I hear an M42 throttle cable will work but an E34 one will mount 100% and just plain work. Part# 35 41 1 160 609 http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/ksearch/PEL_search.cgi?command=show_part_page&please_wait=N&make=POR&model=BE34&section=Pcable&page=1&bookmark=0&part_number=35-41-1-160-609-BOE

E36 radiator hoses and proper radiator. You need all E36 coolant hoses. Even the spider hose and the heater hoses. M20 ones will NOT work. The radiator must be a late model M20 radiator, M42 radiator, or E36 radiator. The early model M20 radiators have the reservoir on the wrong side. The E36 spider hose connects to the coolant reservoir and not to the engine like on M20s. Edit: Use this upper radiator hose and cut down if needed (Dayco D70440)

Appropriate ECU/wiring *needs info. The proper ECU that matches with your engine is necessary. A common upgrade is to use OBD1 electronics instead of OBD2:?: . Also some ECUs (413) come with EWS which will prevent your car from starting. This requrise a "delete" chip. You will also need the engine harness for the ECU to connect all of the sensors. Modification is required to get it to link with the stock E30 fuse box . See http://www.akgmotorsport.com/e30convpins.html for wiring information.

Modified E21 or E30 IX brake booster. The stock E30 brake booster is too big and will contact the intake manifold upon install unless you file down the intake manifold fins. The E21 booster is of the proper size but needs the output shaft shortened to about 15mm. I believe an E30 IX brake booster will fit in without modification:?: . I personally ordered mine refurbished from Zionsville Autosport for $250 and am happy with it.

Electric fan or M20 fan+fan clutch. 100% the E36 fan will not work. The M20 fan and fan clutch will leave about a 1/4" between the fan and radiator. It has proven to hit the radiator on hard deceleration. An electric fan is more than likely the best solution.

Custom exhaust. Upgraded headers are preferred but stock ones will suffice. The stock E36 exhaust will not work on an E30 and no one makes an exhaust kit for this swap (yet). You must get it done at a shop or DIY.

___________________________________________________________

Transmission Combinations

Background:
E34 non vanos models came with ZF (310/320 :?: ). Later model E34s with vanos and all M5x E36s came with Getrag 250s. All M3 (S5x) came with ZF transmissions (320 :?: ). It IS possible to use the M42 transmission (Getrag 240) and the stock M20 transmission (getrag 260).

ZF transmissions. (*AFAIK all the stock ZF's are the same dimensions :?: ) The ZF transmission will mount properly with the stock E30 cross member and E21 tranmission mounts. (I think stock tranmission mounts will work:?: ). The stock E30 shifter and linkage system will bolt up properly without modificaiton. An M5x clutch setup is minimum but an S5x setup (flywheel/clutch/pressure plate/etc) is a good upgrade.

The drive shaft must be from the following:
E30 M3
E30 87-88 325e drive shaft
E36 328 manual (96-98)
E36 (97-98) manual (4 bolt rear not CV joint rear)

Realoem.com has the dimensions of most of these and makes it easy to compare drive shafts. The length you want is 1492mm with the 4 bolt rear end. The drive shaft will mount up properly with an E30 CSB mounted backwards.

Suggested rear differential - 2.79-3.25

Getrag 240. ( :?: :?: :?: ) A stock M42 cross member/tranny mounts may be used. The clutch/starter must be from an M20. The throw out bearing for the clutch must be from a euro 320i
Part available here:
http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/ksearch/PEL_Search.cgi?please_wait=N&forumid=&threadid=&command=DWsearch&command=DWsearch&REFINE=Y&FORUM_REFER=&description=21511204525&x=35&y=13&description=21517521471
Throw out bearing part number # 21 51 1 204 525

Any M5x E36 manual drive shaft will work with an E30 CSB. Suggested rear end - <=3.25

*M20 stock flywheels require shaving 1/8" on the back side to avoid hitting the oil pan.

Getrag 250. ( :?: )Getrag 250s are known weak transmissions and are known to break if driven hard. Drive shaft required is any manual E36 drive shaft with an E30 CSB. The stock E30 M20 manual drive shaft will work properly with the stock cross member and mounts. Suggested rear end - <3.46

Getrag 260.
( :?: )The stock M20 getrag 260 will bolt up and fit on the stock cross member (modified on one side) and transmission mounts. It is recommended to use at least 320i mounts or poly mounts.The transmission will cause the shifter to tilt ~12 degrees. The stock manual M20 drive shaft will also work. This setup requires the M20 starter to mesh with the M20 flywheel. Suggested rear end - 3.46

*M20 stock flywheels require shaving 1/8" on the back side to avoid hitting the oil pan.

__________________________________________________________

Upgrades

OBD1 intake manifold.
OBD2 intake manifolds in the US were restricted due to harsher emissions laws. Getting an OBD1 intake manifold will increase hp easily.

Remove sound material. To access the transmission bolts from under the car (without removing the engine) many people remove the sound deadening against the firewall. It isn't necessary but is a good idea.

Oil pump nut. There has been a few instances of the oil pump nut coming off and the engine losing all oil pressure. Unless you have a gauge, it's a good idea to retighten and make sure that sucker is on there.

Cluster coolant Temp. To make your clusters temp sensor read correctly you will need a brown top sensor from a m20. It replaces the sensor on the intake mani side. it is the 2nd sensor. the one just before the little 1/4 coolant nub
_________________________________________________________


Places to get parts

Treehouse racing http://www.treehouseracing.com/
Zionsville Autosport http://www.zionsvilleautosport.com/
AKG Motorsport http://www.akgmotorsport.com/

Help me make this thread better!
If you find any inaccuracies or something is missing, post! I'll do the best I can to update this to make it the most comprehensive 24v resource.
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Re: 24V Swap info

Postby blacke30 » Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:23 am

You should do a DIY on mega squirting a M50. I haven't seen any threads on that.
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Re: 24V Swap info

Postby Yoshi » Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:47 pm

Only diff is the coil on plug setup and trigger settings on the MS. The general MS steps all apply.
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Re: 24V Swap info

Postby citizen87325es » Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:53 pm

ive heard that the ix booster and e21booster are being problematic and that the 944 booster is the way to go. you have any input on that? ive seen some conversations on it saying its the best route because it gives better clearance.
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Re: 24V Swap info

Postby joecrotch » Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:06 pm

wow I am seriously thinking of doing this now. this does not seem that difficult and a turbo on top of the better flowing head would make power goals sky high. what kinda power are people getting from say a vanos turbo swap?
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Re: 24V Swap info

Postby Yoshi » Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:26 am

citizen87325es wrote:ive heard that the ix booster and e21booster are being problematic and that the 944 booster is the way to go. you have any input on that? ive seen some conversations on it saying its the best route because it gives better clearance.


I got the zionsville booster which I think is an ix booster. I don't see how an IX booster can be bad since it came on the car to begin with. I do have a bud that settled on the 944 booster finally. I have no idea about the E21 one.

joecrotch wrote:wow I am seriously thinking of doing this now. this does not seem that difficult and a turbo on top of the better flowing head would make power goals sky high. what kinda power are people getting from say a vanos turbo swap?


vanos could get you 200 wheel with just a few mods. Boosting isn't easy. If you know how to weld, youre all good though.
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Re: 24V Swap info

Postby citizen87325es » Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:03 am

sorry i didnt word that right, i meant to say that ive heard that the IX booster was rubbing on the intake manifold and the e21 booster (as you mentioned above) has to be shortened. did your buddy have to modify the 944 booster or was it a direct fit?
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Re: 24V Swap info

Postby Yoshi » Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:05 am

i think the 944 was a direct bolt on. Both IX and E21 rub a bit, you just got to file down some fins. no biggie. you could jsut redrill some holes.
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Re: 24V Swap info

Postby bbw808 » Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:58 pm

Thank you so much for the information. I am currently looking for a swap candidate. I have a 95 M3 that was wrecked, but has a built motor, with shrick cams, and have the full suspension so I can do a 5 lug swap and M3 brakes. Just need the swap vehicle. I have been doing research, but this is so simple and consice. Thanks again!
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Re: 24V Swap info

Postby Yoshi » Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:28 pm

np man. Altho your front end suspension won't transfer over to an E30. you need 96-99 M3 front control arms. 95 is a different part number.
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Re: 24V Swap info

Postby Davey » Sat Mar 21, 2009 3:34 am

Good to see this thread has a new home, it gave me some good basic knowledge when I was first looking at the swap.

Almost done now... Just some wiring to go :D
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Re: 24V Swap info

Postby M20_fever » Sat Mar 21, 2009 3:54 am

pics or ban!
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Re: 24V Swap info

Postby Yoshi » Sat Mar 21, 2009 1:53 pm

ban me then
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Re: 24V Swap info

Postby Davey » Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:42 am

I'll get a build thread up when a bit mores done :p...
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Re: 24V Swap info

Postby M20_fever » Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:45 am

Yoshi wrote:ban me then


Yoshi, you always think I'm talking to you, so self centered. :P
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