I NEED HEAD!!!

M20/M30/M50/Whatever! All engine related stuff here.
User avatar
87e30
I <3 E30's
Posts: 2014
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:25 pm
AntiSpam: No
Location: New Jersey

I NEED HEAD!!!

Postby 87e30 » Tue Dec 30, 2014 12:28 am

So over the weekend I decided to pull my valve cover and was planning on doing another valve adjustment to try getting rid of the valve tap that started when the timing belt slipped a tooth. When I got the cover off I was surprised to see BOTH rockers from the front cylinder were broken in half! Well I guess I don't need to adjust the valves on THAT cylinder. Anyway, I'm weighing my options at this point. The engine DOES still run, and it's still my only transportation to get back and forth to work, it's just running on 5 cylinders. I have a complete spare m20b25, the one that came in the car when I bought it. That engine had no compression on 1 cylinder, most likely due to the tip of the spark plug breaking off and going into the engine. I can pull that head and rebuild it then swap it out in my car. Unless someone knows where I can find an inexpensive already rebuilt head, preferably with upgraded parts. I've never done any work inside an engine before, so I'm not even sure where to begin my journey. Any and all advice is appreciated.

Since this is my daily driver, and I have no other vehicles registered at the moment, downtime needs to be as minimal as possible. Thanks in advance.
Attachments
IMG_20141227_133739035(resize).jpg
IMG_20141227_133739035(resize).jpg (124.68 KiB) Viewed 4496 times
Schwarz 5-speed 87 325is (newest project)
Arktisblau 5-speed 86 325e (current DD)
Schwarz 5-speed 87 325e (parts car/LS1 swap?)
Gazellenbeige automatic 85 318i (70,000 miles)
Alpine white 5-speed 87 325is (my first e30, possibly for sale)
99 Suburban
User avatar
M20_fever
Größter Vorsitzender
Posts: 11029
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:28 pm
AntiSpam: No
Location: Northern IL

Re: I NEED HEAD!!!

Postby M20_fever » Tue Dec 30, 2014 3:17 am

have you talked to bimmerheads?
Image
Midwestern Councel C Prepared class champion 2012
North Suburban Sports Car Club C Prepared class champion 2012
HSAX Instructor

GET YOUR E3P GEAR HERE: http://www.cafepress.com/e3pgearshop
User avatar
Yoshi
Site Admin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:47 pm
AntiSpam: No
Location: North VA
Contact:

Re: I NEED HEAD!!!

Postby Yoshi » Tue Dec 30, 2014 12:50 pm

It'll be a reasonably long job but you can swap out the rockers with the engine in the car. I think you have to remove the rad but it's doable. Why not just swap them on and call it a day?

Side note: That motor looks horrible on the inside.
Image
Status: HG repair. 488wtq though!
User avatar
87e30
I <3 E30's
Posts: 2014
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:25 pm
AntiSpam: No
Location: New Jersey

Re: I NEED HEAD!!!

Postby 87e30 » Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:29 pm

I've talked to nobody yet besides my boss who keeps insisting I buy a STOCK rebuilt head. If I'm gonna go through all the work of fixing this why the hell would I use stock parts instead of upgraded parts?

Priced out some Febi (oem?) rockers and stuff on Turner.

Rocker Arm - E30 325e 325i 325is - E34 525i (M20)
Part #: 11331271429 Change This Kit
- Yes, include valve cover gasket and plugs (11121730229, 11331264519 x 4)
- Yes, please include new eccentrics (11331744354 x 12)
$107.10 (USD)
Turner Motorsport Window Stickers (FREE with Purchase!)
Part #: TMS STICKERS $0.00 (USD)
Rocker Arm - E30 325e 325i 325is - E34 525i (M20)
Part #: 11331271429 Change This Kit (had to order 11 separate from the 1 that included the gaskets and stuff or it would have been almost $2000!)
- No thanks, I do not need a valve cover gasket or plugs.
- No thanks, I will re-use my eccentrics.
$219.45 (USD)

Sub Total: $326.55 (USD)

According to my boss I should be able to get a rebuilt head for the same price.


So how long of a job should I expect? Should I replace anything else while I'm in there? Horrible besides the broken bits of metal? :-P
Schwarz 5-speed 87 325is (newest project)
Arktisblau 5-speed 86 325e (current DD)
Schwarz 5-speed 87 325e (parts car/LS1 swap?)
Gazellenbeige automatic 85 318i (70,000 miles)
Alpine white 5-speed 87 325is (my first e30, possibly for sale)
99 Suburban
User avatar
Yoshi
Site Admin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:47 pm
AntiSpam: No
Location: North VA
Contact:

Re: I NEED HEAD!!!

Postby Yoshi » Tue Dec 30, 2014 2:20 pm

There's really no reason to "upgrade" the rockers. They will do just fine like they did for 25+ years. If you can find a rebuilt head for that price, just slap that bitch on. No idea where you'd find one though.

The job for a person who has never replaced rockers before will probably be a day assuming no snags like missing tools and what not. IMO that's like you took out the radiator and took your time kinda thing. Once you get in there, stuff is pretty simple. It's more the retiming and filling fluids that will be annoying.

While you're in there... cam seal? I think the intake mani can stay on so you're fine there. Change the oil lol.
Image
Status: HG repair. 488wtq though!
User avatar
87e30
I <3 E30's
Posts: 2014
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:25 pm
AntiSpam: No
Location: New Jersey

Re: I NEED HEAD!!!

Postby 87e30 » Wed Dec 31, 2014 2:18 am

I burn so much oil that I add more between oil changes than I need to do AT an oil change. I THINK I have all the tools I'd need. If I don't have them in my own tool box remember that I work at a repair shop. :-P

So I looked at bimmerheads site. Cheapest head on there is like $1300+. Again, if I'm gonna do it I'm gonna do it right and upgrade whatever I can, so we're looking at around $2500 for a head. Not sure which cam and whatnot I should use. Is it worth it for +1mm valves? What about welding the cooling whatchamadingle? If I get a different cam I will probably need a new chip, right? My eBay chip is for my 19# injectors with stock everything else. Has anyone here used one of the race heads from them? Any dyno results with their heads with various options?

I seriously doubt I'm gonna find a rebuilt head for $300. My boss called someone today and they told him something like $650 for a rebuilt head without a cam. Not sure what that means exactly. Doesn't the cam need to be installed before all of the stuff on top of it?
Schwarz 5-speed 87 325is (newest project)
Arktisblau 5-speed 86 325e (current DD)
Schwarz 5-speed 87 325e (parts car/LS1 swap?)
Gazellenbeige automatic 85 318i (70,000 miles)
Alpine white 5-speed 87 325is (my first e30, possibly for sale)
99 Suburban
User avatar
Yoshi
Site Admin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:47 pm
AntiSpam: No
Location: North VA
Contact:

Re: I NEED HEAD!!!

Postby Yoshi » Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:15 pm

Maybe find out more about that refurb head without cam. That sounds like your cheapest option. Have you done a comp test recently? Burning oil could be MANY things. I'd imagine there's a fair chance your rings are going. From the oil build up on the engine, I'd almost be inclined to put another one in. But I seem to gravitate towards motor swapping. I mean... why go through all that to make a super sexy head if/when your bottom end is old and worn out.

I seriously just typed out the phrase "your bottom end is old and worn out" and it wasn't in a dirty context.
Image
Status: HG repair. 488wtq though!
User avatar
87e30
I <3 E30's
Posts: 2014
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:25 pm
AntiSpam: No
Location: New Jersey

Re: I NEED HEAD!!!

Postby 87e30 » Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:25 pm

Yoshi wrote:I seriously just typed out the phrase "your bottom end is old and worn out" and it wasn't in a dirty context.


Yeah, but where did everyone's mind, mine included, immediately go after reading that? :-P Oh yeah, you also said "super sexy head"... for the record... in the same sentence no less.

I just don't have the time or energy to swap the whole engine again. I just need to get this damn thing running right to get me through the winter and then focus on getting one of my other e30's on the road. I really want to try an LS1 swap into the black 2 door 325e that I bought as a parts car. The body is really good on it compared to my white 325is, just needs the trunk latch area fixed.
Schwarz 5-speed 87 325is (newest project)
Arktisblau 5-speed 86 325e (current DD)
Schwarz 5-speed 87 325e (parts car/LS1 swap?)
Gazellenbeige automatic 85 318i (70,000 miles)
Alpine white 5-speed 87 325is (my first e30, possibly for sale)
99 Suburban
User avatar
Yoshi
Site Admin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:47 pm
AntiSpam: No
Location: North VA
Contact:

Re: I NEED HEAD!!!

Postby Yoshi » Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:23 pm

In which case, just find some used rockers, swap them on, and call it a day. Fuck the rest.
Image
Status: HG repair. 488wtq though!
User avatar
M20_fever
Größter Vorsitzender
Posts: 11029
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:28 pm
AntiSpam: No
Location: Northern IL

Re: I NEED HEAD!!!

Postby M20_fever » Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:57 pm

I didn't realize they were that expensive. When I built my head it was around $800 with new everything reusing the stock cam, with titanium +1mm intake valves, stock size for exhaust valves, 5 angle valve job, welded coolant channels, O-ring'd, shimmed valve springs, port/polish and gasket matched. If you order the parts a good machine shop should be able to do the work for a few hundred. Look in my m20 rebuild sticky, I have a spreadsheet linked with vendors and prices for all the parts I used. The prices are outdated, but I'm sure they haven't gone up too much.
Image
Midwestern Councel C Prepared class champion 2012
North Suburban Sports Car Club C Prepared class champion 2012
HSAX Instructor

GET YOUR E3P GEAR HERE: http://www.cafepress.com/e3pgearshop
User avatar
87e30
I <3 E30's
Posts: 2014
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:25 pm
AntiSpam: No
Location: New Jersey

Re: I NEED HEAD!!!

Postby 87e30 » Thu Jan 01, 2015 2:32 am

I'd rather not get used parts. Would suck to go through all the work to swap out rockers to have another one snap because I didn't see a hairline crack in it or something.

If I can get some money up quick I'm thinking about just going with one of the bimmerheads race heads with all the bells and whistles. Don't think they offer titanium valves though, just stainless steel. I know the bottom end needs some attention too. Whenever I can get my spare engine home and on the stand I'm gonna start ripping it apart and rebuilding that too so when I'm done I can put the good head on the freshly rebuilt bottom and swap it back in.

Why would you use bigger intake valves but stock exhaust? What does welding the cooling channels do for you? Any downsides? Does the o-ringing have to be done on the block too, or just the head?

If I can't come up with the cash before anyone I know heads back out to Harry's I'll take a trip out there and try to get a head from them and have a go at rebuilding it myself.

What's the link to the sticky? I'm lazy today. Stuck working new years eve. bleh
Schwarz 5-speed 87 325is (newest project)
Arktisblau 5-speed 86 325e (current DD)
Schwarz 5-speed 87 325e (parts car/LS1 swap?)
Gazellenbeige automatic 85 318i (70,000 miles)
Alpine white 5-speed 87 325is (my first e30, possibly for sale)
99 Suburban
User avatar
Yoshi
Site Admin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:47 pm
AntiSpam: No
Location: North VA
Contact:

Re: I NEED HEAD!!!

Postby Yoshi » Thu Jan 01, 2015 2:35 am

I don't think he's suggesting to oversize valves and weld the coolant channels. For NA, there's no reason.
Image
Status: HG repair. 488wtq though!
User avatar
87e30
I <3 E30's
Posts: 2014
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:25 pm
AntiSpam: No
Location: New Jersey

Re: I NEED HEAD!!!

Postby 87e30 » Thu Jan 01, 2015 2:42 am

Would there be any down side to doing either? I don't know what welding the coolant channels does at all. I remember reading about it a few years back, but don't remember what I read. I would think (with my limited engine knowledge) that oversize valves would be good regardless of NA or whatever because the engine can breathe better through bigger holes, right? I DO have a turbo sitting in my garage that I bought for this car by the way, so I may go that route eventually.
Schwarz 5-speed 87 325is (newest project)
Arktisblau 5-speed 86 325e (current DD)
Schwarz 5-speed 87 325e (parts car/LS1 swap?)
Gazellenbeige automatic 85 318i (70,000 miles)
Alpine white 5-speed 87 325is (my first e30, possibly for sale)
99 Suburban
User avatar
Yoshi
Site Admin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:47 pm
AntiSpam: No
Location: North VA
Contact:

Re: I NEED HEAD!!!

Postby Yoshi » Thu Jan 01, 2015 2:16 pm

Welding coolant channels helps the HG not blow. The areas you are welding have no bearing on cooling. The areas welded just happen to be common HG blowing areas.

I forget about oversized valves. Without tuning and other mods, I doubt you'll get much power out of it. But Tony can tell you more about that.
Image
Status: HG repair. 488wtq though!
User avatar
M20_fever
Größter Vorsitzender
Posts: 11029
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:28 pm
AntiSpam: No
Location: Northern IL

Re: I NEED HEAD!!!

Postby M20_fever » Thu Jan 01, 2015 2:43 pm

My engine was built for high boost, O-ringing and welding prevent the gasket from blowing or pushing. You either O-ring the head or the block. I went with the head side because it was a decision made after the short block was assembled, doesn't really matter either way. Over sized valves by themselves won't get you much gain, but with a good port/polish and gasket match, and an aggressive cam for NA applications it will definitely register on the butt dyno. I went with stock sized exhaust valves to keep exhaust gas velocity up for spooling a turbo faster.

You need to put some serious thought into what you ultimately want this car to be, because you are getting into a slippery slope situation. Dumping that kind of money into a m20 head doesn't make sense for a otherwise stock engine, and to really reap the benefits of the top end you need a lot of expensive supporting mods such as good headers, exhaust, AFM delete (which means either a MAF/WAR chip or standalone EMS). Realistically, if you plan on keeping this thing a comfortable DD with a little more omph I'd suggest a stock rebuilt head (or even a good used one) and a good chip. If you really plan to boost and build the bottom end, then do it right the first time and get the Bimmerheads unit.
Image
Midwestern Councel C Prepared class champion 2012
North Suburban Sports Car Club C Prepared class champion 2012
HSAX Instructor

GET YOUR E3P GEAR HERE: http://www.cafepress.com/e3pgearshop

Return to “Engine”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests