5-lug swap adapter sleeves

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5-lug swap adapter sleeves

Postby blasphemy101 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:29 pm

So I came across this thread today...

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=306268

Does this seem like a legitimate solution for adding a e36/e46 brake setup (Auto-x/Track use)? At first glance, it looks like it would be fine - there shouldn't be a lot of forces trying to pull the hubs apart, right? I don't have time to look at it too closely right now - need to pull up hub diagrams to see how it would all fit together, but I thought I'd post it up to see what you guys have to say about it while I run off to class.

The user norMcal raises some points in the info thread, but I'm not entirely sure his concerns are valid.

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=304699&page=6

Either way, I'll have to take a look at it again after class. Interesting stuff, as E36/E46 are super common in the pick-n-pull yards around here...
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Re: 5-lug swap adapter sleeves

Postby Yoshi » Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:45 pm

solution? What's the problem? I'm confused and not that great with 5 lug stuff.
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Re: 5-lug swap adapter sleeves

Postby blasphemy101 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:06 pm

They're sleeves that let you use E36 or E46 hubs (and subsequently rotors, wheels, etc.). The bracket let's you use E36/46 calipers and spaces them out to fit around the rotors. I'm not so concerned about the bracket, it looks more robust than the stock caliper mounting point, on the other hand, it might overly stress those mounting points. I'll have to see how other bbks do it.

I'm more concerned about the large nut/bolt setup for holding the hub on. Its the only thing holding the wheel on, so I want to be sure it's substantial enough. To do the job if I'm sliding sideways at 75+ MPH...
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Re: 5-lug swap adapter sleeves

Postby M20_fever » Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:36 am

meh, doesn't seem worth the risk. Stock brakes with good pads will perform fine for a track car, and if you want more than that go with the RX kit. The change in offset is kinda bad IMO too, do you plan on buying wheels with the calipers and discs? If you need wheels, rotors, hubs, and calipers the budget side of this conversion kind of goes out the window.
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Re: 5-lug swap adapter sleeves

Postby Yoshi » Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:46 pm

I'm both with an against Tony on this one. I agree that some nice pads and some decent stock blanks will do more than you need. Remember that our cars are light by comparison.

I'm against because I think the bolts should hold. The forces on them are sheer/side to side. Strong enough bolts should hold fine. If you're that worried, weld them together :). I've seen adapters like these work before. Good materials make all the difference.

Personally, I don't like the idea of 5 lug swaps as they limit the amount of rims you can run. Not expand it.
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Re: 5-lug swap adapter sleeves

Postby blasphemy101 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:17 pm

I've looked at the design some more and compared it to the OEM hub setup. Here are my thoughts...

M20_fever wrote:meh, doesn't seem worth the risk. Stock brakes with good pads will perform fine for a track car, and if you want more than that go with the RX kit.


After looking at it some more, the risk doesn't seem to high, if the materials used are appropriate. The hub is attached the same way as a stock hub, and another, reverse-threaded bolt can be added for assurance. The bolt is easy enough, since it should just be standard 10.9 hardware. I'm more concerned about the big hub nut, since that seems to be a custom-machined piece. It's fine if it's machined from OEM-level materials, but I don't know enough to be able to tell.


M20_fever wrote:do you plan on buying wheels with the calipers and discs? If you need wheels, rotors, hubs, and calipers the budget side of this conversion kind of goes out the window.


Running this setup probably costs about the same as the RX-7 kit after a couple sets of rotors, and it's much cheaper than a brand-name BBK. Any BBK would require new wheels, since I have 15s... The biggest expense unique to this setup is the hubs. They're $115 a piece. Calipers are $20 from the pick-n-pull.

Yoshi wrote:I'm both with an against Tony on this one. I agree that some nice pads and some decent stock blanks will do more than you need. Remember that our cars are light by comparison.


In most situations, I agree. There are reasons they put larger brakes on the M3 and even bigger brakes on cars used for competition, though.

Yoshi wrote:I'm against because I think the bolts should hold. The forces on them are sheer/side to side. Strong enough bolts should hold fine. If you're that worried, weld them together :). I've seen adapters like these work before. Good materials make all the difference.


Largely agree here, but (from my view) the shear forces are going to be on the extension from the strut tube that runs through the hub. Obviously, it's strong enough to do the job. I'm not extremely worried about the sleeve; It's just a spacer and doesn't have anywhere to go. During turns, the nut holding the hub to the strut tube will experience tensile forces (my concern). If the materials/design of the nut are robust enough, I don't see the reason it needs the reverse-threaded bolt as back-up, since the nut works in the same fashion as the OEM one would.

Yoshi wrote:Personally, I don't like the idea of 5 lug swaps as they limit the amount of rims you can run. Not expand it.


The change in offset is 12mm, which isn't HUGE, but still noticeable. My bigger concern is the necessity for larger diameter wheels (like other similarly-sized BBKs). 16 or 17 inch wheels with a necessity for 12mm MORE offset could cause issues for wider (8-9") wheels, since the strut tube will be in the way on the inside and the wheel will be pushed further towards the fender.

[EDIT] I should note, I'm not DYING to use this kit, even though it might seem that way. I just think it's an interesting approach and much simpler/more elegant than the Frankenstein E36 5-lug setup. I AM considering buying the kit and setting it aside until I've worn out this set of tires, though. That would be a more appropriate time to go 5-lug, and it would let me acquire the parts over time while letting others stress-test the kit...
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Re: 5-lug swap adapter sleeves

Postby Yoshi » Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:20 pm

blasphemy101 wrote:In most situations, I agree. There are reasons they put larger brakes on the M3 and even bigger brakes on cars used for competition, though.


What reasons? I haven't found a situation where the factory brakes haven't worked. Are you 100% certain this is the most effective use of your time/money?

blasphemy101 wrote:The change in offset is 12mm, which isn't HUGE, but still noticeable. My bigger concern is the necessity for larger diameter wheels (like other similarly-sized BBKs). 16 or 17 inch wheels with a necessity for 12mm MORE offset could cause issues for wider (8-9") wheels, since the strut tube will be in the way on the inside and the wheel will be pushed further towards the fender.


The hub adapters do that? I would think spacers would be cheaper. Since you aren't changing the strut location, the stress on the hub is the same as 12mm spacers.

I have a 17x8 wheel in the front with 25mm spacers. I have a good finger width between the wheel and the strut. Also keep in mind that 16x?? will be closer to the strut due to the angles.

Again, still not seeing a reason for 5 lug. I see potential for the E36 brakes. Not the 5 lug hub. Though, this modification could work for the factory 4 lug.
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Re: 5-lug swap adapter sleeves

Postby blasphemy101 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:49 pm

Yoshi wrote:What reasons? I haven't found a situation where the factory brakes haven't worked. Are you 100% certain this is the most effective use of your time/money?


Braking performance, brake fade, rotor/pad life. I'm more interested in the discussion than the actual product. If I went for it, I wouldn't consider it a short-term project.

Yoshi wrote:The hub adapters do that? I would think spacers would be cheaper. Since you aren't changing the strut location, the stress on the hub is the same as 12mm spacers.


I believe the 12mm is the result of the hub adapter and the different thickness of the E36/46 hub vs. E30. There shouldn't be an increase in stress on the hub, since the hub surface is the part spaced out, increasing the offset, right?

Yoshi wrote:I have a 17x8 wheel in the front with 25mm spacers. I have a good finger width between the wheel and the strut. Also keep in mind that 16x?? will be closer to the strut due to the angles.


That depends on the wheel offset, though. You have M3 fenders, right? Pushing the wheel OUT isn't a big deal on a setup like that, so space between the strut and wheel isn't as big of a deal. I was referring to fitting the wheel in a stock fender. Fender flares or box fenders would greatly simplify the wheel problems.

Confused about how a 16" wheel would be closer to the strut than a 17" wheel... Or do you mean versus a 15" wheel? I need to go look under my car, but my 224/45r15 tires have like a finger gap between the tire and strut with a 15x8 +20mm wheel.

Yoshi wrote:Again, still not seeing a reason for 5 lug. I see potential for the E36 brakes. Not the 5 lug hub. Though, this modification could work for the factory 4 lug.


I don't really care about the 5 lug aspect; it's just a by-product. For the long-term, stock E36/46 rotors would be cheaper than custom/aftermarket/drilled rotors that would be required if you stuck with the E30 hub. For someone who wants to go 5-lug, this is probably the simplest/cheapest way to do it, though.

I think I gave the wrong impression when I titled the thread - I just figured more people would recognize the product if I referred to the 5-lug outcome.
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Re: 5-lug swap adapter sleeves

Postby Yoshi » Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:28 pm

blasphemy101 wrote:Braking performance, brake fade, rotor/pad life. I'm more interested in the discussion than the actual product. If I went for it, I wouldn't consider it a short-term project.


So you've already had issues with what you mentioned? I've yet to actually see someone have any of those issues. I figure Tony out of all of us would have hit that point but he doesn't seem to have. And he drives HARD.

blasphemy101 wrote:I believe the 12mm is the result of the hub adapter and the different thickness of the E36/46 hub vs. E30. There shouldn't be an increase in stress on the hub, since the hub surface is the part spaced out, increasing the offset, right?


Thickness isn't the issue, it's the stress on the bearing. The bearing hasn't changed location but the rim mounting surface is now farther away. Regardless if it's a spacer or the face of the hug, there's still additional stress on the bearing.

blasphemy101 wrote:That depends on the wheel offset, though. You have M3 fenders, right? Pushing the wheel OUT isn't a big deal on a setup like that, so space between the strut and wheel isn't as big of a deal. I was referring to fitting the wheel in a stock fender. Fender flares or box fenders would greatly simplify the wheel problems.


My 17x8 rims are 0 offset. I fit them on a spare car of mine with some rack spacers and still didn't hit the fender or the strut. Though, it was raised a bit high. Regardless, there's only a finite amount of space between the fender and the strut. Spacing and what not won't fix that. I like the idea of getting as close as your comfortable with to the strut, then deal with the fenders. They can always be rolled/pulled/etc.

You really don't want to space it too far out even if you had over fenders. You have to pay attention to things like bearing stress and scrub radius. Spacing the wheels out to high hell will make your car handle very poorly.

blasphemy101 wrote:Confused about how a 16" wheel would be closer to the strut than a 17" wheel... Or do you mean versus a 15" wheel? I need to go look under my car, but my 224/45r15 tires have like a finger gap between the tire and strut with a 15x8 +20mm wheel.


The easiest way to explain it is that the strut isn't straight up and down. it's at an angle. the wheel and strut make a right triangle where. The farther up the triangle you go, the more available distance between the wheel and the strut. There would be more space between the strut and rim lip if you had 16x8 +20 than your 15x8. even more with a 17x8 with the same offset.

blasphemy101 wrote:I don't really care about the 5 lug aspect; it's just a by-product. For the long-term, stock E36/46 rotors would be cheaper than custom/aftermarket/drilled rotors that would be required if you stuck with the E30 hub. For someone who wants to go 5-lug, this is probably the simplest/cheapest way to do it, though.

I think I gave the wrong impression when I titled the thread - I just figured more people would recognize the product if I referred to the 5-lug outcome.


I agree with the hub adapter. should you want it, that's probably the cheapest way. Though, I do like the update of the front struts. Allows you to mess with roll center IIRC.
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Re: 5-lug swap adapter sleeves

Postby blasphemy101 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:47 pm

Yoshi wrote:So you've already had issues with what you mentioned? I've yet to actually see someone have any of those issues. I figure Tony out of all of us would have hit that point but he doesn't seem to have. And he drives HARD.


Brake fade isn't a huge issue for me so far, since I'm only auto-crossing (hopefully this will change). I've cooking the fluid a couple of times. More often in my S2000, though. Overall brake performance in my car is sub-par IMO. It's likely due to the pads and the old brake system, but if I was going to refurbish the brake system...might as well upgrade.

I haven't encountered a car driven at auto-x/track where rotor heat dissipation wasn't an issue.

The stock brakes are likely adequate. That doesn't mean they couldn't be better, but I get what you're saying. For the time-being, they are good enough.

Yoshi wrote:Thickness isn't the issue, it's the stress on the bearing. The bearing hasn't changed location but the rim mounting surface is now farther away. Regardless if it's a spacer or the face of the hug, there's still additional stress on the bearing.


What? This setup uses E36/46 bearings in E36/46 hubs. Shouldn't stress be the same (or theoretically less, since the car is lighter) as an E36/46? The distance from the wheel to the bearing/hub shouldn't be any different than it is on an E36/46.

Yoshi wrote:My 17x8 rims are 0 offset. I fit them on a spare car of mine with some rack spacers and still didn't hit the fender or the strut. Though, it was raised a bit high. Regardless, there's only a finite amount of space between the fender and the strut. Spacing and what not won't fix that. I like the idea of getting as close as your comfortable with to the strut, then deal with the fenders. They can always be rolled/pulled/etc.

You really don't want to space it too far out even if you had over fenders. You have to pay attention to things like bearing stress and scrub radius. Spacing the wheels out to high hell will make your car handle very poorly.


Wait you have coils... In my case the (225/45r15) tire is very close to the spring perch, don't you remove them when you install coils? I agree on not spacing things out too far - You want the wheel mounted as close to the hub/bearing as possible to reduce that stress. I should have clarified I meant spacing out using wheel offset, not a spacer.

Yoshi wrote:The easiest way to explain it is that the strut isn't straight up and down. it's at an angle. the wheel and strut make a right triangle where. The farther up the triangle you go, the more available distance between the wheel and the strut. There would be more space between the strut and rim lip if you had 16x8 +20 than your 15x8. even more with a 17x8 with the same offset.


The way you're explaining it makes sense, but contradicts what I remember from feeling around the wheel under my car (the whole spring perch issue from above).
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Re: 5-lug swap adapter sleeves

Postby Yoshi » Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:05 pm

blasphemy101 wrote:Brake fade isn't a huge issue for me so far, since I'm only auto-crossing (hopefully this will change). I've cooking the fluid a couple of times. More often in my S2000, though. Overall brake performance in my car is sub-par IMO. It's likely due to the pads and the old brake system, but if I was going to refurbish the brake system...might as well upgrade.

I haven't encountered a car driven at auto-x/track where rotor heat dissipation wasn't an issue.

The stock brakes are likely adequate. That doesn't mean they couldn't be better, but I get what you're saying. For the time-being, they are good enough.


IIRC S2ks are known for brake issues on the track. I could be wrong. My concern about braking is things like brake bias. I don't like the RX7 mod since it only does the fronts. Meaning, they would be more likely to lock the front but not the rear. I'm unsure of the brake bias f/r between E30s and the newer 3 series. If the bias was the same and you were doing all 4 at once, I would agree. This warrants more research.

blasphemy101 wrote:What? This setup uses E36/46 bearings in E36/46 hubs. Shouldn't stress be the same (or theoretically less, since the car is lighter) as an E36/46? The distance from the wheel to the bearing/hub shouldn't be any different than it is on an E36/46.


I thought this was E36/E46 hubs into an E30 bearing or an adapter of some kind. If the bearing was designed for it, I have no issues then. The thread is kind of a cluster and hard to figure it out. So you can just slap on E36 bearings and a hub to call it a day? Why don't more people just do that instead of all the control arms/struts/shit?

blasphemy101 wrote:Wait you have coils... In my case the (225/45r15) tire is very close to the spring perch, don't you remove them when you install coils? I agree on not spacing things out too far - You want the wheel mounted as close to the hub/bearing as possible to reduce that stress. I should have clarified I meant spacing out using wheel offset, not a spacer.


Uh. Yea. I don't recall. I've had those rims on lots of setups. I don't specifically recall it on a stock strut. The point still stands though.

blasphemy101 wrote:
The way you're explaining it makes sense, but contradicts what I remember from feeling around the wheel under my car (the whole spring perch issue from above).


I'm talking in ideals. Realistically, nothing ever fits so nicely lol.

First good convo I've had on a forum in like 2 years. :)
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Re: 5-lug swap adapter sleeves

Postby blasphemy101 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:27 pm

Yoshi wrote:IIRC S2ks are known for brake issues on the track. I could be wrong. My concern about braking is things like brake bias. I don't like the RX7 mod since it only does the fronts. Meaning, they would be more likely to lock the front but not the rear. I'm unsure of the brake bias f/r between E30s and the newer 3 series. If the bias was the same and you were doing all 4 at once, I would agree. This warrants more research.


Yeah, ideally you'd want to upgrade the rears aswell, but either way you'd have to figure out some way to move the brake bias around.

Yoshi wrote:I thought this was E36/E46 hubs into an E30 bearing or an adapter of some kind. If the bearing was designed for it, I have no issues then. The thread is kind of a cluster and hard to figure it out. So you can just slap on E36 bearings and a hub to call it a day? Why don't more people just do that instead of all the control arms/struts/shit?


No it's a spacer between the hub/bearing and the stub on the spindle, not the hub and the bearing. See the install in this thread - it really clarified how it works for me. Pretty simple. Looks like this guy isn't using the reverse-threaded bolt to lock everything down.

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=279110&page=9

Yoshi wrote:Uh. Yea. I don't recall. I've had those rims on lots of setups. I don't specifically recall it on a stock strut. The point still stands though.


Yeah - amount of clearance is obviously a factor that would vary from setup to setup.


Yoshi wrote:First good convo I've had on a forum in like 2 years. :)


Good to hear. I love discussions like this. I was worried you'd be getting annoyed with my disagreements every other post lol
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Re: 5-lug swap adapter sleeves

Postby Yoshi » Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:18 am

oh I see now. Yea. The bearing should be fine. I guess that works... More stress on the spindle but the bearing is ok. Not sure I like that idea though... looks janky for reasons I can't explain.
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Re: 5-lug swap adapter sleeves

Postby M20_fever » Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:47 am

Damn I missed a lot here.

The only time I faded the stock brakes was with shit Autozone pads, never faded the stock brakes with good pads, and never boiled the fluid with GOOD fluid. You need to have the right tools for the job. That said, the RX kit greatly improved my stopping distance, which is why bigger brakes are better. It shouldn't necessarily be to fix brake fade. That's like putting a bigger fuel tank in a car with a fuel leak to go the same distance as before the leak, its a band-aid. A proper setup should perform consistently and reliably regardless of size. Obviously if the brakes are grossly under size it will be a problem, but that's not the case in an e30.

The e36 brakes are bigger for one primary reason, the car is much bigger and heavier than an e30. If you look at the curb weight of an e30 to an e36, and look at the brake size in relation to the two, you will see the e36 brakes are proportionately similar. The M3 is the biggest, yes, which does improve stopping distance, but on an e30 its major overkill unless your doing some serious racing, in which case you would be running legit BBKs and not a budget setup like this.

The RX kit has performed excellent for me, and rotors are cheap since they are just stock Corrado units with the hub ID opened up a tiny bit. This can be done with a simple flap wheel and a drill press, no biggie. The calipers are LIGHT as hell, probably way lighter than the e36 units, so unsprung weight is lower = better performance. You can get an entire RX kit (adapters, rotors, rebuilt calipers, pads) for cheaper than this other option. I can only speak to my own experience, and that experience is that there are very few vehicles at the track that can out brake me. The bias is nearly perfect with good pads on all four corners.

The offset isn't a huge deal. I run 16x8.5 et27 with 10mm spacers up front and 8mm in the rear leaving about a credit cards gap between the strut and wheel (literally), but any clearance is enough and I've never had an issue. My 16x8.25 XXRs are et0 and with no spacers it took a lot of work to get them to clear the fenders, and they still scrub a bit under full compression in the rear.

I'm sure this hub adapter is fine, there are people in the thread on r3v that claim they have been proven on the track. My biggest issue is the cost of the entire setup (adapters, rotors, calipers, wheels, pads) that kind of makes it not worth it IMO. The best part is using the ti rear struts to have an option for bigger brakes in the rear, but the ti trailing arms are not exactly performance items considering they came off the bottom of the line compact BMW. There is a reason that model was short lived...I never really understood sourcing parts off them.
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Re: 5-lug swap adapter sleeves

Postby Yoshi » Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:39 pm

ti/z3 rear parts are wider IIRC. ti by like 5mm and the z3 by something more. I don't recall specifics. That I like. Just not the 5 lug part lol.
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