Yoshi's Modded knuckle kit R&D

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Re: Yoshi's Modded knuckle kit R&D

Postby Yoshi » Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:07 am

I just have tie rod spacers now.

I dislike the top hat. I paid good money for an adjuster kit. This is a fixed top kit and is VERY proprietary. What happens if the ball joints die in a year? or I snap the control arm? I'm pretty SOL on getting a new one. I haven't found a cheap way to get these to the US without paying $1500+.

I do like the idea of the bolt on bracket.

IMO drifters are cheap as hell. My kit would be a hodge podge setup. Tie rods from an E90 maybe, E46 control arms, and a single piece bolt on angle spacer. It should require no special ball joints and no other after market parts. Simple, serviceable, and available from the dealer sans place. Plus this also allows me to create multiple plates. Lower roll center more, add more angle, add some pos/neg ackerman, etc.

At the price point I'm thinking, I can make these spacer plates for about $50 a set. But I haven't started real R&D yet. I'd rather get my car up and running as is before adding more bells and whistles.
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Re: Yoshi's Modded knuckle kit R&D

Postby Yoshi » Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:37 pm

So I've done some more measuring since I'm jet lagged to hell and can't manage much physical movement.

I'll do pictures or something sometime later.

Basically, from my measurements, the stock tie rod travels 8cm. The movement arm of the knuckle, aka the distance between the center of the control arm ball joint and the tie rod ball joint center, is 12.6cm. Doing basic geometry, that's 37 degrees of steering angle stock. with 7mm spacers, you get 43.8 degrees. Which sounds about right to me. Give or take a degree or two for a margin of error.

With these basic measurements, shortening the pivot arm to 8cm and keeping the stock rack (no spacers), you should be able to do 60 degrees. 8cm will give about 70 degrees.

By looking at the kits already available, I got a few ideas. First, the pick up points will have to be lowered. Which works fine as anyone with this kit will already be lowered. This will correct bump steer and at least front roll center. The mounting points will be lowered about 2.5-3cm. An inch basically.

The other obstacle is getting around modding control arms and tie rods. There's 2 options. Drop the mounting point more, or move the mounting point toward the inside of the car. I like the idea of dropping the mounting point (making more space for the nut) but I fear the spacer would become too thick. Moving the mounting points in would push the king pin farther out of the car. Which is good and bad. the E46 control arms already give you demon camber. This would give more. But, the pro to this is that it would theoretically give more clearance so you don't hit the tie rod/control arm as quickly. IE moar anglez.

Another thought was to drill multiple holes for the tie rod pick up. So you can pick your amount of ackerman and angle to suit your car's needs.

now I just need to find some hunks of metal and start cutting/drilling lol.
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Re: Yoshi's Modded knuckle kit R&D

Postby Rick » Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:23 am

Just a stab at this, but why dont you just re-bore the tie rod mount to put it in towards the pivot more? clearance issues?
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Re: Yoshi's Modded knuckle kit R&D

Postby Yoshi » Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:30 am

it's not a bolt on application and the metal wouldn't work right. It would be off at an angle and kill integrity.
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Re: Yoshi's Modded knuckle kit R&D

Postby e30orDie » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:05 pm

Yoshi wrote:I just have tie rod spacers now.

I dislike the top hat. I paid good money for an adjuster kit. This is a fixed top kit and is VERY proprietary. What happens if the ball joints die in a year? or I snap the control arm? I'm pretty SOL on getting a new one. I haven't found a cheap way to get these to the US without paying $1500+.

I do like the idea of the bolt on bracket.

IMO drifters are cheap as hell. My kit would be a hodge podge setup. Tie rods from an E90 maybe, E46 control arms, and a single piece bolt on angle spacer. It should require no special ball joints and no other after market parts. Simple, serviceable, and available from the dealer sans place. Plus this also allows me to create multiple plates. Lower roll center more, add more angle, add some pos/neg ackerman, etc.

At the price point I'm thinking, I can make these spacer plates for about $50 a set. But I haven't started real R&D yet. I'd rather get my car up and running as is before adding more bells and whistles.


Yoshi wrote:So I've done some more measuring since I'm jet lagged to hell and can't manage much physical movement.

I'll do pictures or something sometime later.

Basically, from my measurements, the stock tie rod travels 8cm. The movement arm of the knuckle, aka the distance between the center of the control arm ball joint and the tie rod ball joint center, is 12.6cm. Doing basic geometry, that's 37 degrees of steering angle stock. with 7mm spacers, you get 43.8 degrees. Which sounds about right to me. Give or take a degree or two for a margin of error.

With these basic measurements, shortening the pivot arm to 8cm and keeping the stock rack (no spacers), you should be able to do 60 degrees. 8cm will give about 70 degrees.

By looking at the kits already available, I got a few ideas. First, the pick up points will have to be lowered. Which works fine as anyone with this kit will already be lowered. This will correct bump steer and at least front roll center. The mounting points will be lowered about 2.5-3cm. An inch basically.

The other obstacle is getting around modding control arms and tie rods. There's 2 options. Drop the mounting point more, or move the mounting point toward the inside of the car. I like the idea of dropping the mounting point (making more space for the nut) but I fear the spacer would become too thick. Moving the mounting points in would push the king pin farther out of the car. Which is good and bad. the E46 control arms already give you demon camber. This would give more. But, the pro to this is that it would theoretically give more clearance so you don't hit the tie rod/control arm as quickly. IE moar anglez.

Another thought was to drill multiple holes for the tie rod pick up. So you can pick your amount of ackerman and angle to suit your car's needs.

now I just need to find some hunks of metal and start cutting/drilling lol.



I agree with 90%~ of this.

They (WF) are prettty proprietary. I questioned them on replacement parts of the tie rods, and joints. I received a shifty answer of

" Hi! We have been using wisefab kits for 2 years now on different tracks and at high speeds. So far we haven't had any problems with braking parts. We have broken coilovers, but not the parts of the kit.
Any questions, let me know.

janis@adparts.lv "

now I can't contest to adparts.... as far as their affiliation to WF. I'm willing to bet they aren't the same people, which makes their answer even more terrible. All I asked was about replacements parts as they wear, and or if they were to break out on the track (in say an accident) I wouldn't want to buy a whole new kit for just a tie rod......... That's what I get in return ^^


As far as their top mounts go.... I find it VERY necessary. I also, think that moving it about as much as they did, would be MORE beneficial w/ e46 arms (due to the fact that it would kill all camber, where their kit still has some) (check dudes ride on r3v from miami- he's got lots of videos out too). I just sold my springs and shocks, in order to go to coilover, so that I can move my strut further out, and forward. (spring clearance) While tearing my car down, I left my struts on my control arms, dropped the loli's and removed the fender, to extract the spring, and shock. I then installed the loli's back, and using the jack under the control arm, I raised said control arm to about ride height. I noted the angle of the tie rod, and control arms, and I 100% agree with a 1" drop block BOLTED (agreed again) to the strut. THEN, I started looking at the angle that my disk brake was setting at, when the strut was in the factory location (aside from track width gained) and slid out to where I had it (I still had my shock installed at this point, to use the top of it as a reference point)

So, when you wheel is at lock, and in the "standard-ish" position (strut top location and settled suspension) you can see the angle the disk brake sits at. It DOESN'T give a very flat contact area at lock. To compensate for that, you need to move the top mounting position FORWARD, and or / and also move the lower mounting point BACKWARDS. Which is actually ironic, as we installed the e46 arms for more caster and roll center correction, now we are bringing it back... but not all the way.

insert rick into this
Rick wrote:Just a stab at this, but why dont you just re-bore the tie rod mount to put it in towards the pivot more? clearance issues?


If you look close at the WF mounting points of the arm, tie rod, and where the strut bolts to it, they have done the same thing. Difference, may be that their arms may extend forward EVEN MORE (more caster) than the e46 arms. HOWEVER.... at this point, too far forward, your tie rods will bind up against the control arm it self. Our e46 arms have a much fatter ball joint area than the SLR and the WF kits. But they are using heims, and studs..... They also use STRAIGHT tie rods, and not the bent ones like we have.... Luckily, I've looked into other solutions to this (tie rods)



Like I said, Im looking into making blocks as well, and have already started on a wooden mock up, to test fit, to see if tie rods will clear at whatever angle...... (im not in it for the angle) more so for parallel wheels at lock (ackermann). I am interested in how you are going to get the steel, and have them machined, for only 50$ ???

My idea consist of a block, mounted to the strut. This block has two more mounting holes, that are "in set" (closer together) on the inside, side of the block. Front one being for tie rod.... back on being for the control arm. My idea, for the control arm mounting is to run a larger block- (dont know EXACT measurements yet) but 1.5' thick, and run a .5"~ recessed hole, for the NUT to the control arm ball joint. As far as tapers go... The machinist and I have a few ideas behind that, but we haven't choose yet. However, this allows you to use the factory 46 arm's ball joint, with no problems as far as mounting. The tie rod hole will need to be address as well, as far as taper goes.... Again, there are other things to worry about first.


My UUC camber / caster plates are pretty worn... I've had them since 09 and they have seen a lot of miles..... So, I don't have a problem taking a flat sheet of steel, making a plate, and welding a tube with some support braces to house a spherical bearing? I question that... because i'm not sure of what type of bearing to use for the shock mount? IF you or someone could possible shed some light on different strut bearings, and etc.... that would be AWESOME :D

but.... going with my guess of the spherical, I have found myself a bearing to use.... Now, I am going a different route with adjustable shocks this time- and my strut dia is 15mm's SO.... THIS spherical bearing would only apply to me......

http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/kit644



Now, if you are able to still follow me... I mentioned tie rod correction- I talk about the need for a straight tie rod, so that there is LESS clearance issues.... where as the e36 ones are curvy... Now, I thought about the e30 (inner and outer) setup might work (****I think its a straight set? its been a while since I saw one....***), with the blocks.... due to the fact, that the mounting position has been moved back, inwards.... (closer to where it used to be) But, if you were to ever want more adjustment out of bumper steer, and or ackermann, you would need a bump steer kit....

WELLL BOOOOOO e36 bump steer kits are retardly high priced.... like they are a porsche or something.... :roll: And, im not going to pay that.

So, I started in on some measurements too :p and of course, some dimensions of other cars.... (this is copied from the email sent to my machinist regarding tapers)

Okay.... so here's what I have gathered as far as specs and data goes, as far as what seems to be suited for my application.

First off, here's the tie rod specs:

Mustang

Part Number: MRC ES3184
Product Line: Master Ride Chassis

Attributes:
Large Diameter Taper (Dimension B) : .63"
Length (Dimension F) : 5.44"
Right or Left Hand Threads : RH
Rod End Thread (Dimension A) : M14 - 1.5
Rod End Thread (Dimension E) : M12 x 1.25
Small Diameter Taper (Dimension C) : .55"
Stud Thread Size (Dimension E) : M12 x 1.25
Taper Length (Dimension D) : .57"
Thread Type : Female

01 camaro

Part Number: MRC ES3245
Product Line: Master Ride Chassis

Attributes:
Overall Length (Dimension D) : 13.32"
Rack End Thread (Dimension A) : M18 - 1.50
Type : 2

18.76" Over all length of both ^^




e36 outer (current)


Part Number: NCP 2693048
Product Line: NAPA Chassis Parts

Attributes:
Large Diameter Taper (Dimension B) : .55"
Length (Dimension F) : 8.5"
Right or Left Hand Threads : RH
Rod End Thread (Dimension A) : M14 - 1.5
Small Diameter Taper (Dimension C) : .5"
Taper Length (Dimension D) : .5"
Thread Type : Female


e9x inner (current)

Part Number: NCP 2693614
Product Line: NAPA Chassis Parts

Attributes:
Overall Length (Dimension D) : 10.97"
Rack End Thread (Dimension A) : M18 - 1.5
Rod End Thread (Dimension E) : M14 - 1.5
Socket Flat O.D. (Dimension B) : 1.48"
Type : 2


19.47" over all length of both ^^


over all length of current (on car) is roughly 17.5" (measured at the whole length installed)


with a difference of .71"~ I feel kinda iffy.... due to the fact of using math of "overall" lengths... VS center to center measurements... or at least a diagram to show what (a,b,c,d, dimensions) are... (NAPA took those images down) (they used to supply them) :(


Now, with the blocks moving tie rod point in closer to the rack, I believe I can get away with the Camaro, and the Stang tie rods. Not to mention, the stang is the closest I could get to our tie rod taper. If you don't know how to find taper, its the larger dia minus the smallest dia, divided by the length of the taper IIRC*


I've had all of this for a moment, but I didn't want to share the ideas, as I'd rather test them first, and post my findings. But decided id type this up real quick to see if you had and ideas you could through back towards me.





And..... here's some good photo's of their kit, and where and why I based my ideas / then checked with strut on the car w/ the angle of the brake rotor.

Image

Funny thing is that they list this as a e36 in the image..... which is a complete lie. This is the e30 bracket. If you look at the e36 brackets, they use a LONG stud in the control arm ball joint, as it goes through the block AND spindle... so, honestly, we lucked out having e30's on that note :)




OH yeah! I forgot about prices....

Camaro Inners are 20$ for both (i found)
and mustang bump steers with TAPERS not BOLTS i found cheapest of 120 SHIPPED which is like 65~% cheaper

I don't mind paying the 120 for the bump kit being its so much cheaper, and only off a tad from our taper... (less to correct on the tie rod stud/s taper)
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Re: Yoshi's Modded knuckle kit R&D

Postby Yoshi » Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:39 am

didn't really think about the taper. Figured I'd just weld a box, reinforce, drill press the holes. I've basically given up on this kit lol. Do it for me, take my money.
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Re: Yoshi's Modded knuckle kit R&D

Postby Ciclajbek » Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:36 pm

So basically, all we need is that piece of block under strut, with holes on right places? that should not be a problem to do?, friend of mine has complete schematic copy of wisefab kit, except it is for e36, I can ask him to give me that :P
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Re: Yoshi's Modded knuckle kit R&D

Postby Yoshi » Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:26 am

yea pretty much. get copies made and send them to us! I've basically given up on making them myself.
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Re: Yoshi's Modded knuckle kit R&D

Postby e30orDie » Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:23 am

lol You silly guys.....

E36 spindles.... struts... whatever... has a difference pivot point, than the e30's. Take a closer look ;) the e36 blocks, have 3 holes.... e30's have 4.... e36 shares the rear strut bolt, WITH the control, as it's joint.... where as the e30's are bolted to the block, which is then bolted to the control arm, 3 bolts & a tie rod, vs 1 bolt, 1 stud, and 1 tie rod, using the e36's.....

So... this brings me to my second point. How are you gonna extend your control arm ball joint, long enough to go through a 1-1.5" block... and a strut, and still put a nut on it...... :p (if using the "e36" blocks)

silly rabbits, trix are for kids -grin-

why are these^ so SUPER SIZED? lol

Now... I could show you some cad / pro engineer / 3d rhino, drawings, and bore you with some geometry math.... but, really.... There's a lot of time spent on that stuff, on their end, and anyone else here.... trying to attempt this. Now I made a model out of some Teflon or some type of machinable plastic. But I hope to email about 3-4 different models, to a friend who has access to a stereolithography printer, and get some mock trail models made and sent to me, to see about clearance issues.

Then, due to the offsets of the mounting points (and the structural geometry), you have to worry about the loads, and stress on the piece itself, which can be tested through an analyzer program, that simulates loads and stress. But you don't want it to fail.... so it needs to be of high quality metal.... which is going to take longer thus, costing more.. using a machine shop to manually make these. You really must for for water jet cutting at that point. Which.... isn't cheap either, essentially....

We haven't even got into tapers....

lucky enough, I have a friend who's family owns a CNC shop, where they make blue prints for some car manufacturer, for the door assemblies and what not... So, after I finalize my design, I will pay him to have mine cut. If they seem to be bullet proof, I'll then look into making more than just my one set.






alll jokes aside.... came across this, and thought of you ... :D

http://www.estperformance.com/products/Yoshi-cable.html
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Re: Yoshi's Modded knuckle kit R&D

Postby Yoshi » Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:12 pm

I dunno. I just want someone to make it for me at this point. I'm tired of thinking.

lol @ yoshi cable.
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Re: Yoshi's Modded knuckle kit R&D

Postby e30orDie » Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:34 pm

Thought you might wanna hang that yoshi plug, next to your yoshi blade :mrgreen:

short n sweet teaser.... as the only thing on my mind right now, is breakfast.......

here's a lil screen shot of one of the mock up designs. Keep in mind, i've never touched a wf kit, a friend and I, only did this in scale, using geometry equations and my strut. Kinda funny how the image resembles theirs. They defiantly have some time and research in it....

Image


and yes...... I have a lot of shit running on my studio lol, but she never sweats!
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Re: Yoshi's Modded knuckle kit R&D

Postby AustinR » Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:27 am

I dig that the file name is "THESHIT" hahaha.
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Re: Yoshi's Modded knuckle kit R&D

Postby e30orDie » Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:34 am

AustinR wrote:I dig that the file name is "THESHIT" hahaha.



hahahah i wondered if anyone was going to catch that.... lol but yeah, IT IS THE SHIT!
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Re: Yoshi's Modded knuckle kit R&D

Postby Ciclajbek » Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:47 pm

But wisefab has bored this metal block on CA point so it is thin as original hub point, right? so you don't need longer ball joint ;)
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Re: Yoshi's Modded knuckle kit R&D

Postby Ciclajbek » Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:49 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-C99flW3zg

where is the sway bar and its linkage?

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